Images & Transcript
Pool deck with evidence placards
Evidence placard K with shorts and underwear on hot tub steps
White powder in pill bottle
Close-up of blue shorts
Close-up of underwear
Transcript: Season 2, Episode 9
tucker, lillard, marianne, asks, agent, clark, alexa, marcus, dna, correct, confirms, porn, gbi, evidence, investigation, shockley, people, coffey, test, gap
Judge Burleson, Agent Maybin, Penny, Marcus Lillard, Mr. Tucker, Clark Heindel, ADA Coffey
Hi I'm Penny Dearmin. This is season two Blood Town on Trial
In the last episode, ADA Coffey finished her direct examination of agent Maybin. We heard the remainder of the interview with Marcus Lillard, ASAC Chandler, and Maybin. If you watched the 48 Hours episode, you saw a video of Maybin's interview when Marcus lay on the ground as soon as he learned of Clark's suicide. And the jury never saw this. They only heard the audio recording of the interviews between Marcus and the GBI. The only videos the jury saw were the body cam footage and CCTV, at Amici's and Aubrey Lanes. Agent Maybin is still on the stand as Mr. Tucker begins his cross examination. Mr. Tucker says agent Hargrove put placards around piles of clothes Placard R near the diving board and near the chair. Agent Maybin confirmed there were clothes out there. Mr. Tucker asks how many sets of clothes were out there. Agent Maybin says R was a green polo shirt and cotton pants, a darker color. K was blue running or workout type shorts, athletic shorts with underwear. He thinks they were both size large.
Agent Maybin 01:48
There were some towels there and I think maybe Miss Shockley's shirt we identify was there. We also found a blue shirt that Mr. Lillard was wearing somewhere and on the pool deck somewhere I can't remember exactly where but it was there as well and some towels, a bunch of towels around.
Mr. Tucker asks Agent Maybin if he tested any of the clothes for DNA and he says we did not. Mr. Tucker refers to placard K with the blue shorts and underwear on the steps to the hot tub. Agent Maybin confirmed that Mark has said he was not wearing underwear that day.
Mr. Tucker 02:29
The ones that are right there, K. With the underwear? We don't know who's those are?
Agent Maybin 02:36
No, we, we don't. I mean I don't know how many times people changed clothes at that house that day when they got there. That is Clark Heindel's house. I don't know that he picks his clothes up out from the pool every time he goes out. I don't know if those are his; I don't know who they are can be from a party in the past. We don't know.
Mr. Tucker 02:54
But, it's right there on the steps which would be noticeable if somebody's trying to get in there or was trying to step out of it. Those shorts would be in the way, correct?
Agent Maybin 03:07
They are on the steps of the hot tub.
The pictures of the yellow plastic placards with letters on them are being shown to the jury. Mr. Tucker asks what is that placard B? Agent Maybin says there is a coffee mug and some kind of cup. Agent Maybin says the crime scene specialists relayed to them that there was liquid collected out of the cups. He's not sure which samples field tested positive for DMT. When Mr. Tucker asks if there was tea in the cups agent Maybin seems to downplay this by saying they called it tea because the defendant called it tea. They called it and unknown liquid substance. Mr. Tucker asks if other unknown substances were found at Clark's house.
Agent Maybin 04:04
So we did search his house and then in those cases we collected what we suspected to be marijuana. We collected some white powder in a pill bottle, maybe a couple ofpills that were unknown and some liquid substances and some solid candy types substances, gummy bears.
Agent Maybin says the white powder in the pill bottle came back as unknown substance but negative for controlled substances. When asked Maybin confirms it was not cocaine. Mr. Tucker asks if he remembers testifying at the preliminary hearing in the case that the tea tested positive for DMT.
Agent Maybin 04:46
Well, at that time was early in our investigation. And we were, whe I said that, yes, just like we showed y'all we did do a field test on some of that liquid and it did test positive in our field test for DMT. As this investigation progressed, we can't rely on a field test. So we sent it to our lab for testing, in which my understanding the reports I reviewed come back negative for any illegal substance.
Mr. Tucker asks about the sexual assault kit. Agent Maybin says he did receive it and confirms it included results from the fingernail clippings of Marianne Shockley. Mr. Tucker attempts to enter this report as defense exhibit three, ADA Coffey objects on the basis of foundation.
Mr. Tucker 05:37
I asked specifically is this report you received from the crime lab. He said yes. Is the report that you put into your...
ADA Coffey 05:45
If I may approach
The prosecution and the defense approach the bench, each time the attorneys speak with Judge Burleson, the defendant Marcus Lillard goes with them. The jury is on the opposite side of the courtroom, so they likely cannot hear the discussion. On our side near the judge, We can only catch a word here and there. Mr. Tucker resumes his cross almost four minutes later and asks, having refreshed your memory now, do you remember what day the fingernail clippings were taken?
Agent Maybin 06:22
That report came out? It says dated on top 7/30/2019, doesn't it?
Mr. Tucker 06:28
Do you not read these reports in your experience?
Agent Maybin 06:30
I've read a lot of them.
Mr. Tucker 06:32
You see where it says date? Evidence taken?
Agent Maybin 06:37
Yes, they received it on 5/13? I thought you meant when the report came out.
Mr. Tucker 06:40
No, no, no. When they were received, so that was fairly close to the date of the incident, correct?
Agent Maybin 06:49
Mr. Tucker 06:50
Roughly two days?
Mr. Tucker 06:51
And in this testing, you said it was inconclusive of any kind of DNA from Mr. Lillard or from Mr. Heindel, correct?
Agent Maybin 06:51
Agent Maybin 06:52
They were inconclusive, they could not say that there was any other particular person's DNA under the nails observed at all.
Mr. Tucker 07:10
And what date was that?
Agent Maybin 07:12
September 26 2019.
Mr. Tucker 07:15
And they tested it again, right?
Agent Maybin 07:17
I think they did what they call true allele casework on it, which is they go, they have more tools now that can go a little deeper into the DNA analysis and try to determine the donor.
Mr. Tucker 07:30
Okay, so it's fair to say more than one test was done on this, correct.
Agent Maybin 07:35
When we requested DNA and how many, that's their procedures is DNA testing, and a true allele if it's eligible.
Mr. Tucker says, when you were questioning Mr. Lillard, you made the comment that there was DNA Correct. Agent Maybin says I did make that comment. Yes.
Mr. Tucker 07:58
You said there was DNA evidence found on her neck that was his.
Agent Maybin 08:02
I did tell him that.
Mr. Tucker 08:03
And that was a lie, wasn't it?
Agent Maybin 08:05
That was a lie.
Mr. Tucker 08:06
Okay, And you said that basically, the material was being tested for DNA. And you said to him, directly said, well, IF the DNA does come back, and it shows your DNA around her throat. Then we have a different story, right? And something to that effect.
Agent Maybin 08:25
Something to that effect.
Mr. Tucker 08:26
Okay. But the DNA never came back that way, did it?
Agent Maybin 08:29
We did not get any DNA from her body at all that indicated anyone
Mr. Tucker 08:34
and did you DNA test the shorts that were right there at the steps right there at the hot tub, right there where Marianne was found?
Agent Maybin 08:42
No, we did not. Those shorts were found in some pouring rain. They were soaked, contaminated with water.
Mr. Tucker 08:50
And it was so contaminated with water because when they came to the crime scene, it hadn't started raining. They started roping it off. They didn't protect or cover any of that evidence did they?
Agent Maybin 09:02
They did not. Well, Baldwin County Sheriff's Office approached the scene first. Their deputies roped it off. Their deputies are not crime scene specialists. They're not gonna have the tools in there. And they're going to be taught not to disturb that scene. They may take photographs to preserve what they can see but they're not gonna to touch it. So that's what they're taught, that's what they're trained to do
Agent Maybin confirms that one of these individuals was Lieutenant McDade and he retired briefly after this incident. Mr. Tucker asks, and he was responsible for detaining Clark heindel Wasn't he?
Agent Maybin 09:44
Yeah, after our investigation or our review of the video footage it's my determination that it appeared that he was in charge of detaining Clark Heindel
Agent Maybin confirms that they collected an Alexa or speaker Mr. Tucker asks, those generally recover or maintain or hold commands that it has been asked to do, correct? Agent Maybin says it listens for its name and then follows whatever command you give it to do. In collecting these, Mr. Tucker asks, you are able to hear certain voices like Clark heindel and Marcus and Marianne, correct?
Agent Maybin 10:27
We did download that device and obtain the recordings, or maybe I think we downloaded and obtained recordings from Amazon as well.
Mr. Tucker 10:36
And did you come up with a timeline, having that evidence and having voices and commands during that day?
Agent Maybin 10:43
Yeah, I mean, it showed every time someone said, Hey, Alexa, play something or do something that recorded that time and the voice that said it and any background noise, any records, several seconds, you know, maybe a couple seconds before and after, and so you can hear maybe five seconds of sound. I wouldn't call it a timeline, we put together we were able to get a list of the times that Alexa was activated. During that date.
Mr. Tucker asks, and you didn't use those timelines as a reference to try to figure out when Mr. Lillard was present, and when he wasn't
Agent Maybin 11:24
Well you could hear people in the background at times. We did listen to that. It showed us that early on, I think the first recording the same time about 8:20, I can't, I don't have it in front of me. But somewhere around that time, so it showed us you know, that they were there, you could hear him maybe playing music. Sounded like everybody was having a good time. It there was never any type of distress that we heard. or no type of altercations we heard. it was 8 something. It was after a little after 8, is when I think it first went off.
Mr. Tucker asks about any other electronics like phones or computers that he did research on. Agent Maybin mentions that he examined all three cell phones and obtained cell phone records from the cell phone companies.
Agent Maybin 12:21
I believe we did take a computer from Clark Heindel's house. I'm fairly certain we examined it from what I remember.
Mr. Tucker 12:29
M'kay. And Isn't it true and you examined it at 7:33pm On 5/11 He was searching the web for lesbian porn.
Agent Maybin 12:40
I can't recall that exactly.
Mr. Tucker 12:42
If I may approach your honor.
Judge Burleson 12:43
Mr. Tucker 12:45
So those times that you just reviewed, it appeared that he was looking or surfing or had on his computer URL. lesbian porn, correct?
Agent Maybin 12:57
Yes. I do you recall that now, there was that searching to a website.
Mr. Tucker 13:03
It was long-haired blonde pressing boobs against her stepson, and free lesbian porn video. Is that fair to say?
Agent Maybin 13:14
that's fair to say.
Mr. Tucker 13:15
And he continued to look at it and wanted to look at the most popular porn video. And he looked at blonde and brunette babe, having an attraction to kissing.
Agent Maybin 13:28
I mean, I've reviewed that, but looking at pornography is not illegal. And there was nothing regarding choking or bondage or any type of aggressive sex.
Mr. Tucker 13:42
But there were psychedelic drugs and there were other drugs found at this location. Correct?
Agent Maybin 13:47
We found drugs in this location. We we've never confirmed finding any psychedelics or hallucinogens there. Rumored to be there, but we didn't confirm that.
Mr. Tucker 13:57
And along with that there was his computer showing that porn was being watched. And roughly around the time that you could hear on Alexa, that they were they're having a good time around eight o'clock or some time at eight o'clock. This was occurring all the way up to 7:37, He was looking at porn?
Agent Maybin 14:23
That's what the computer time printouts, that's from the computer we examined, yes.
Mr. Tucker 14:28
And in your investigation. Did you feel this was important?
Agent Maybin 14:31
It wasn't porn of him choking or beating women or bondage porn, that would have been a lot more to me alarming. But that's not what the case was.
Mr. Tucker says. But it's your contention that it's a sexual act that was causing the death of the deceased Correct?
Agent Maybin 14:52
Mr. Tucker 14:52
So sexual acts wouldn't be considered important in this investigation.
Agent Maybin 14:57
Well, sexual acts, having sex doesn't cause someone to choke, it's the act of choking someone during sex that's causing this person to die.
Mr. Tucker 15:06
Did you think that somebody, a 69 year old man looking at sex porn on his laptop was important to this case.
Agent Maybin 15:14
Agent Maybin confirms that he received the toxicology report on Marianne Shockley.
Mr. Tucker 15:23
And you noticed that there was a very high level of MDMA, correct?
Agent Maybin 15:28
There was a level of MDMA, high, I can't speak on how high's high and how low's low. I don't I don't know we did, I think maybe ask the toxicologist and she indicated they were elevated or what but she you can't she couldn't speak to what could be an OD amount or or anything like that
Mr. Tucker 15:49
Was it more than double what Clark had in his system?
Agent Maybin 15:52
Yes, it was. And if you look, and take into the account of the timeframe difference of how long the Clark lived after Marianne, then you had to take into account the timeframe of metabolizing the drug. Marianne, was evidently in distress at That first phone call based on Mr. Lillard's statements, that was at 11:20. Mr. heindel. Sometime we're after around 2am, in that neighborhood. Couple hours, two and a half hours.
Mr. Tucker says so it's your conclusion that Miss Shockley passed away at 11:20. Agent Maybin says I can't tell you exactly what time she passed away. I can just say that we know based on the defendant's statements that she was at least unconscious at that point. Mr. Tucker goes after the credibility of the GBI, calling into question whether they considered all of the evidence important. That Agent Maybin didn't find out that Marcus was on probation before interviewing him and how this could be why Marcus lied about using drugs; that Marianne had a high level of MDMA, the shorts on the steps to the hot tub, the Alexa, the porn, the statements, that they, the GBI, couldn't find more of Clark's sexual partners, including one of his ex wives. Agent Maybin says Marcus was younger and more promiscuous and therefore had more sexual partners for them to talk to. Mr. Tucker says you went in there three times. And Marcus stated what he could remember, correct?
Agent Maybin 17:51
He stated what we heard on the audio,
Mr. Tucker 17:53
When that didn't work, trying to be nice, you came in there, and you started lying to him about evidence that was found. And he had the same story set? And of course, he could not remember correct.
Agent Maybin 18:04
I did come in there and tell him that we had DNA we didn't have. And he did still deny choking Marianne.
Mr. Tucker 18:13
And at one point, you told him, we had your DNA around her neck, you recall that?
Agent Maybin 18:20
Mr. Tucker 18:20
And later on in the conversation, you said, Well, if we find DNA, then we're going to come back and talk to you. And that was in the same interview. Correct?
Agent Maybin 18:32
Mr. Tucker 18:33
So if you were inconsistent in all your interviews with them on man, I don't care, but I do care. Correct.
Agent Maybin 18:41
I think I did say that.
Mr. Tucker 18:43
And another time, you said accidents happen all the time.
Agent Maybin 18:48
We, at one point in one interview, I did.
Mr. Tucker tries to raise more reasonable doubt by asking if the bracelets were tested for DNA. Agent Maybin says no. But we saw Marianne wearing a black rubber bracelet in the video
Mr. Tucker 19:05
this whole time. You're questioning Mr. Lillard just pushing this on him. You gotta tell us what to do, he ever say he'd take a polygraph test for you?
Agent Maybin 19:14
Mr. Lillard asked for one late, not early on, but sometime during the investigation.
Mr. Tucker 19:22
Just one? did he not mention it over five times?
ADA Malcor objects and ask the judge may we approach? There is no response to the objection made on the record that we could hear. Mr. Tucker returns to his cross examination and says in your investigation, you never explored who's clothes those could have been?
Agent Maybin 19:47
We did our best to put the clothes to the person that we knew were there. We did our best to see if anybody else came to that location. If we did do DNA, if they didn't get soaking wet in the rain and we did the DNA and those clothes came back to Mr. Heindel, that's Mr. Heindel's house, that's his pool, that's his hot tub. He's allowed to have clothes all around the pool in the House that belonged to him.
Mr. Tucker asks, do you recall making the comment that everyone including Clark heindel is capable of something when their mind is off?
Agent Maybin 20:21
I made that comment that everybody is capable of killing another person
Mr. Tucker 20:26
And, from this Alexa. At what time did you hear Clark or Marcus talking to Alexa? The first time you heard,
Agent Maybin 20:38
you could probably hear all three of them at some point during that 8 o'clock hour I would say.
Mr. Tucker 20:42
And activity began on Clark's computer that you researched on lesbian porn roughly around 7:37.
Agent Maybin 20:51
I don't remember what time his activity on his computer for the whole day. But the pornography searches or website visits he's referring to did occur, as he said it was 7:30 or so that night,
Mr. Tucker 21:05
you collected this Alexa? Correct?
Agent Maybin 21:07
Mr. Tucker 21:09
And we hadn't heard anything from this, Alexa. Correct.
Agent Maybin 21:12
Mr. Tucker 21:14
Because you feel that that is not significant on setting a timeline on the deceased
Agent Maybin 21:21
I don't feel like it gave us any evidentiary value to determine how Marianne died. And I was not. I did not put together the evidence presentation for this case. I didn't, it wasn't my decision.
Mr. Tucker says no further questions. On redirect ADA Coffey asks about the Alexa recordings and she tenders the recordings into evidence.
Clark Heindel 21:50
Alexa, turn it off. Alexa, [Marcus in background: the reason I asked that is] turn it up. Alexa, [Marcus in background: here's what, here's why. And that's a beautiful thing.] [Marianne in background: AHA! Look at you!] Play the next song. Oh, it's so.
Marcus Lillard 22:09
Alexa play Travis by Quinton Herbert Herbert Quentin Tarantino is trapped. Alexa, play Travis by Herbert. [Marianne in background: Less is more sometimes.] Alexa Travis TRIBUS by Herbert.
Clark Heindel 22:36
Alexa, Play Rolling Thunder review by Bob Dylan. [Marcus in background: Oh, yes, sir. That's the one with the white face paint.] Alexa, play desire by Bob Dylan. [Marcus in background: Oh, yessirr.] So,
Marcus Lillard 22:52
Alexa, hook up Bluetooth to Clark's phone. Alexa, turn the volume all the way up.
Clark Heindel 22:58
Alexa. Play random songs from my Spotify. Alexa, play songs from my Spotify. Alexa, Alexa, turn it off. Alexa, turn it up. Alexa, play songs from my Spotify. Alexa, turn it up. Alexa. [Marianne in background: Moonshine stills? Marcus: No Greg] Play Astroweeks by Van Morrison. [Marcus in background: oh yessir, that's a good one.]
When asked about the evidentiary value Agent Maybin says, As you heard, all it shows is them playing music, them having a good time.
Agent Maybin 23:49
There's nothing that indicates anything occurring that somebody was in distress or somebody was harmed or anything occuring that was out of the ordinary.
ADA Coffey asks about GBI training on how to interview a witness or a suspect. What are some of those tactics that are used?
Agent Maybin 24:10
In the case here? I mean, based upon the evidence we saw, and as the inteviews progressed, we knew there was indications that Mr. Lillard was not being truthful. So we use tactics such as, like I did, I did tell him we had DNA we did not have and that was to try to get him to say well, you know, they know so I might as well tell them. Sometimes some people have to have that for them to tell the truth. They have to know they're already caught and they can't get out of it. So that's one tactic that I used there. Well, we will sometimes minimize the crime. People are more likely to confess to what they did, if somebody doesn't think it's that bad, they don't want to be appear to be a murderer or a bad person or a serial killer and that point, of that nature, then, you know, you can say accidental. You didn't mean to do it, and it will sometimes bring them around to you admitting what they've done because they don't feel like it's as bad
on recross Mr. Tucker says about the Alexa device. You can hear when Marcus, Clark, or Marianne were talking and you were given a time, correct. Maybin says yes.
Mr. Tucker 25:28
And you could make a timeline of when you heard Marianne, or Clark or Marcus speaking on that, correct?
Agent Maybin 25:37
Mr. Tucker 25:38
And then there were lapse of times you would miss one of those people speaking on it. And you could have made a timeline then? Correct.
Agent Maybin 25:46
Just because you didn't hear them doesn't mean, they weren't there.
Mr. Tucker 25:48
But you could make a time when there was a gap from one talking to when they talk again on it, correct?
Agent Maybin 25:53
You can you can do a timeline of the gap between activation of the Alexa.
Mr. Tucker 25:59
Was there a gap for when they said play Desire? Was there a gap before you heard somebody else's voice?
Agent Maybin 26:06
I don't know. There was a gap. There's there was gaps in a lot of 'em. But there was a, there was a long gap. Now, just specific recording he's referring to I don't know which one that was. But there was a significant gap between recordings.
Mr. Tucker 26:21
When they were playing it here a second ago, you heard him say, play desire by Bob Dylan.
Agent Maybin 26:27
Mr. Tucker 26:27
You recall hearing that, correct?
Agent Maybin 26:29
That was one.
Mr. Tucker 26:30
There was a long gap.
Agent Maybin 26:33
That may have been the recording. I do remember, there was a record gap. But which recordings I'm not familiar. I don't have it in front of me with the times and all that. But there was a gap. There was gaps in all of 'em, but there was a significant gap between two.
Mr. Tucker 26:47
And you didn't fell it that was important or sufficient to give you a timeline in this case, right?
Agent Maybin 26:55
Well, just because they're not speaking to the Alexa doesn't mean there's music playing. We don't know what's going on in the background. We don't know what's going on there during that timeframe other than we know they're not talking to Alexa.
Mr. Tucker 27:05
But as you just stated, the GBI let you go and lie to people you could've used that gap to try to pressure Mr. Lillard to say something that didn't happen, right.
Agent Maybin 27:17
Mr. Lillard was already, there was already a gap. I mean, there was already an hour and 45 minute gap before he called 911. So we already knew that it was a gap. I don't think that was really beneficial to me to use.
Mr. Tucker 27:28
You didn't want to know when there's a gap that you heard Clark, Marianne, or Marcus talking before the call to 911?
Agent Maybin 27:36
My response would be I don't believe we had recordings during our interviews with Mr. Lillard. That was later on because as we told you, the investigation evolves we get evidence as we go.
Mr. Tucker says the GBI trains you to use these techniques to come in there and lie to a devastated man on a circumstance and turn around and call Him a liar.
Agent Maybin 27:59
We're allowed to lie to people we're interviewing.
Mr. Tucker says no further questions, and we're released for our lunch break. It's the last day of the trial. But we don't know that yet. We're still wondering if the defense is going to introduce any evidence or call any witnesses, including Marcus Lillard. It's tense in the courtroom, and the lawyers are starting to object and kind of argue a little bit more. I don't think about the strange feeling in the courtroom while I'm there, insular and familiar. Even now, as I record this podcast, I don't think about what I will do when it's over. The task at hand is all I can handle. We pretend this is how it will always be. We arrive at the courthouse before 9am and shuffle through the metal detector. Our bags on the conveyor belt every day a bigger smile, a joke with the security guards. The cups of coffee getting bigger as the verdict gets closer. We sit in the same spot in the same row and discuss the case or life outside the courtroom with the same people during the breaks. Another witness gets off the stand and returns to watch the rest of the trial. Each one more personally connected and likely to be outraged, no matter the result. They were ripped from their lives and forced to answer questions on the stand where everything is at stake. I have to follow all of the rules the members of traditional media have to follow. There are veteran crime reporters and startups and a national news program. We wonder if Marcus will take the stand. It seems an impossibility to me that he won't. After listening to him talk to the GBI four days of the trial, I imagine his skin is crawling at the chance to clear up what he thinks is a misrepresentation. I believe it would be a mistake. At this moment is when my life outside the courthouse peeks back in and takes me hundreds of miles away from here to where I live, and I remember why I had to get out of this town. No verdict can mitigate the pain we associate with a place no matter how beautiful no matter the people still in it. On the next episode, we'll be discussing the 404 B witnesses which are the prior sexual partners of both Marcus and Clark. If you have any feedback on the 48 hours episode, send us an email firstname.lastname@example.org or message us on social media. Join Patreon at patreon.com/bloodtown for early access and bonus content, or leave a rating or review on Apple podcasts Good Pods or Spotify. You can visit our website bloodtownpodcast.com or follow us on Facebook or Instagram at blood town podcast and on Twitter @blo