It's Close to That:
Images & Transcript

Mural painted on a large portion of wall with black background of 4 musicians playing guitar

Mural taken from Marcus Lillard's old house to Clark Heindel's house

Transcript: Season 2, Episode 5

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

marianne, gbi, marcus, tucker, clark, letter, ada, asks, defendant, cocaine, witnesses, carson, blood, choked, people, read, drugs, father, state, ecstasy

 

SPEAKERS

Ayla, Judge Burleson, ADA Malcor, Penny, Richard Crippen, Carson Lillard, Mr. Tucker, Michael Ruff, Bud Mitchell, Monica Lindsay

 

Penny  00:00

Hi I'm Penny Dearmin. This is season two Blood Town on Trial. For the rest of the afternoon and into the next morning, the state calls the 404 B witnesses. Two and a half weeks before the trial, ADA Malcor filed a state's notice of intention to present evidence of other acts committed by defendant. Included as support, the notice states that defendant is charged with causing the death of the victim during the commission of the felony: aggravated assault to wit strangulation. During the course of the investigation, several witnesses came forward and reported to law enforcement officials that the defendant had choked them and had been violent or aggressive with them during sexual intercourse. Further, the defendant discussed his predilection for choking women with a friend who warned him he should be careful before he killed someone. The state believes that this evidence should be admitted to show the defendants intent, knowledge and lack of mistake or accident. This testimony is also admissible to show how the victim's fatal injuries were inflicted and by whom. We were not present at this hearing, so we don't know if Mr. Tucker objected on the grounds of rule 403 to exclude the evidence as needless presentation of cumulative evidence. The judge granted the order and the witnesses were allowed to testify at trial. We will return to the 404 B witnesses in a later episode. Just know that the jury heard testimony from seven of Marcus Lillard's former sexual partners and two of Clark's. ADA Malcor calls Johnny Mitchell to the stand. He's wearing a prison jumpsuit and he's hard to hear at times with a deep gravelly voice. He is what we would call an uncooperative witness.

 

ADA Malcor  02:16

And Mr. Mitchell, do you have a nickname that you go by? 

 

Bud Mitchell  02:20

Bud

 

Penny  02:22

ADA Malcor asks Bud Mitchell, how long have you known Marcus Lillard? 

 

Bud Mitchell  02:27

20 years. 

 

Penny  02:29

Bud Mitchell says he met Marcus while working as a detailer on the car lot. After bud Mitchell says yes, he and Marcus did use drugs together. ADA Malcor asks, What drugs?

 

Bud Mitchell  02:44

Crack cocaine

 

ADA Malcor  02:46

Have you been around the defendants when there are women around? 

 

Bud Mitchell  02:51

Yes. 

 

ADA Malcor  02:52

Was the defendant? Is the defendant popular with women?

 

Bud Mitchell  02:56

We were both popular with women.

 

ADA Malcor  03:01

All right. Have you been around the defendant when the two of you were using drugs with women around?

 

Penny  03:10

Bud Mitchell says that he would usually just drop the drugs off, or he and Marcus would do drugs together?

 

ADA Malcor  03:18

Let me ask you this. Do you remember a time when there were a lot of women around and you were hoping to stay?

 

Bud Mitchell  03:25

Yeah, but Ieft. I had to go.

 

Penny  03:29

ADA Malcor asks, did the defendant ever talk to you about choking women? And Bud Mitchell is really hard to understand. He's mumbling and saying things like, well, we didn't really ever talk about it. Other people talked about it. And so he's not really directly answering the question. And it's pretty hard to understand what he's saying

 

ADA Malcor  03:53

Did you ever talk to the defendant or warn the defendant about that behavior? 

 

Bud Mitchell  04:01

I can't really recall. I mean.

 

ADA Malcor  04:03

Well, let me ask you this. If I showed you your statement to the GBI, would that refresh your recollection? Do you think

 

Bud Mitchell  04:13

it could? I mean, probably would, you know what I'm saying. But I was on drugs at the time. I wrote a statement also. 

 

ADA Malcor  04:20

Okay, well, we can talk about that.

 

Bud Mitchell  04:23

Is that statement, you said you told me to sign and I was like I ain't got no glasses to read it and you'se like, that's nothin'?

 

ADA Malcor  04:31

Nope. That's Not the one. Do you have your glasses now? 

 

Bud Mitchell  04:35

No. 

 

ADA Malcor  04:35

So take a minute to look that over and tell me if that helps to refresh your recollection about what you told the GBI and are you able to read it Mr. Mitchell?

 

Bud Mitchell  04:48

Not really.

 

Penny  04:49

It starts to feel surreal in the courtroom at this point. Mr. Mitchell has lost someone in his family close to him and so it's understandable if he is struggling with that. But he also is saying, in addition to not being able to remember anything, he said that he can't read the statement because he doesn't have any glasses. So ADA Malcor asks, If someone read it to him, does he think that that would refresh his memory? And he says it could. So the judge recesses for an afternoon break so that someone can read his statement to him outside the jury's presence. After the break, ADA Malcor asks, If but ever talked to the defendant or warn him about choking people?

 

Bud Mitchell  05:41

You know what I'm sayin? Perhaps maybe I might have. 

 

ADA Malcor  05:47

Why would you have done that? 

 

Bud Mitchell  05:49

Because I wouldn't do it. I ain't gonna do that.

 

ADA Malcor  05:54

Do you think it's dangerous? 

 

Bud Mitchell  05:56

I ain't gonna try it. 

 

ADA Malcor  05:58

Is the reason you're not going to try it because it would be dangerous?

 

Bud Mitchell  06:02

Yeah.

 

ADA Malcor  06:03

 Did you tell the defendant it was dangerous?

 

Penny  06:07

Bud says I probably told him I wouldn't do it because I don't know my strength. I wouldn't do it. I probably told him, I'm not sure.

 

ADA Malcor  06:16

And did you tell that GBI agent that you told the defendant he was going to that he was going to kill one of the those women? I'm paraphrasing, but did you tell the agent that

 

Bud Mitchell  06:30

I can't recall back that far but I probably did tell the agent that, you know what I'm sayin?

 

Mr. Tucker  06:35

How long did the GBI press you or talk to you on an initial visit before you said anything. 

 

Bud Mitchell  06:42

About two hours [unintelligible].

 

Mr. Tucker  06:49

Did you pretty much tell them what they wanted to hear?

 

Bud Mitchell  06:54

 I don't know, I were high. 

 

Mr. Tucker  06:55

You were high. So you can't really tell specifically, if what they paraphrase or not with what you said.

 

Bud Mitchell  07:04

 I mean, you know, I was high.

 

Mr. Tucker  07:06

and when you are high, do you sometimes not remember clearly, circumstances or things you've said? 

 

Bud Mitchell  07:11

I mean, you know,

 

Penny  07:17

The state calls Nikki Simmons, a former GBI agent who worked on the investigation. She interviewed Bud Mitchell; she quoted Bud as saying Marcus was wanting to, "screw and choke the women he was involved with," and that Mr. Mitchell actually told him that he was gonna "kill one of those bitches" ADA Malcor asks if he gave him any further warning, Miss Simmons quoted Bud as saying "you better be careful because you don't know how much pressure you're putting on them. When you're choking him. He told him again, you better be careful. The state calls Marcus's son Carson Lillard and Carson is one of the few individuals involved that knew all three that were present that night. 

 

ADA Malcor  08:09

Did you know Clark Heindel? 

 

Carson Lillard  08:11

Yes, he was my therapist when I was a teenager.

 

Penny  08:16

After therapy, Carson lost touch with Clark for a couple of years until after he turned 18.

 

Carson Lillard  08:22

Around the time I started seeing him a bit more. I would go to good karma once it opened sometimes with my father.

 

ADA Malcor  08:31

Did you ever go to Clark's house

 

Carson Lillard  08:34

Once. It was a month before Mother's Day 2019. It was April. My father was in town. I hadn't spoken to him or seen him since September 2018. He wanted to get together and meet up; after a while he wanted to go to Clark's. And so I went up there with him. When we first arrived there, it was just the two of us and Clark, a young woman was there as well. Clark and I made it food. And then I played music.

 

ADA Malcor  09:07

I want to ask you about a mural that your father has talked about, what is your understanding of this mural that was being dropped off for you?

 

Carson Lillard  09:17

It had been painted onto the wall of a house on sweet gum road. It was four or five musicians. By 2019, he no longer lived in the house. No one lived in the house and then it was foreclosed on. It was a painting on a wall. 

 

ADA Malcor  09:33

When was the last time you spent time with Clark?

 

Carson Lillard  09:36

It was a week before Mother's Day 2019

 

Penny  09:40

The Milledgeville Eatonton Film Festival was in town and they wanted to film a yoga class. So Clark asked Carson to play music to kind of guide the yoga class that was supposed to start at 6:30am

 

Carson Lillard  09:54

Nobody came to the class and the film festival people didn't come. It just ended up being me and Clark just playing music and hanging out.

 

ADA Malcor  10:04

Had he talked to you about the death of his son. 

 

Carson Lillard  10:07

We spoke about it that day.

 

Penny  10:09

Carson said Clark was sad and his demeanor was kind and gentle. He never saw Clark lose his temper or act aggressive.

 

ADA Malcor  10:19

Did you know Marianne Shockley? 

 

Carson Lillard  10:21

Yes. 

 

ADA Malcor  10:22

Did you meet her through your father?

 

Carson Lillard  10:24

Yes.

 

Penny  10:24

 Ada Malcor puts forth a scenario where Clark was directing or bossing Marcus or telling him what to do or what not to do, and asks would that be consistent with what you know about them? Mr. Tucker objects to the question, arguing that ADA Malcor has not laid the foundation for Carson's ability to observe a scenario such as this with Clark and Marcus. ADA Malcor argues that Carson has established his knowledge of these two men and their personalities, not that he has observed this scenario; the objection was overruled by Judge Burleson.

 

Carson Lillard  11:06

I would say that I could not picture that being the case. And rather it being exactly the opposite,

 

Penny  11:16

Mr. Tucker asks, If Clark ever brought up the concept that fathers are human too that they can make mistakes, but they always love their children.

 

Carson Lillard  11:26

It wasn't a concept that he gave me necessarily. It was him teaching me that, although my father could be abusive, and mistreat people in his life that comes from Him, and that that wasn't my fault.

 

Penny  11:44

Mr. Tucker asks, if it's fair to say you never had a good relationship with your father since the divorce,

 

Carson Lillard  11:52

He's my father and as a young man I always wanted to have a good relationship with my father I always wanted him to be in my life, always wanted him to be a good father. I always wanted him to be there for me, and I always wanted him to love me and treat me with love. That's something I've never really received. That was something that he was never really capable of following through on.

 

Penny  12:18

Mr. Tucker asks if his father had ever been violent or aggressive to him, or if you ever saw him be violent or aggressive to anyone?

 

Carson Lillard  12:27

He was never physical with anyone that I saw, but it was, it was always a threat. It's very easy to loom and tower over women and children.

 

Penny  12:41

The state calls Monica Lindsay, she is the cousin of Adrianne Leonard Marcus's ex wife. And her husband Scott is friends with Marcus. Marcus wrote a letter to her husband on October 19, 2021. This is Mrs. Lindsay reading from portions of the letter, 

 

Monica Lindsay  13:01

I could write a lot about what all I've been through. But I say that for a road trip in the future, I am close to the end of this debacle or disaster, or redemption, or whatever you want to call it. Before I get to business. I did have a few quick notes. Plus the quick story of what happened to Marianne, I, we just figured it out. Go ahead and Google Whitney Houston's death now. It's close to that. On a personal spiritual note. I don't remember what I wrote to you last year. But I know it was from the heart and was true as true can be. I am a changed man it's all so real. I love Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit and the Bible. More every day. This event definitely was to rebuild me that I can accomplish the mission of God made for me. Here's the very simple and all unencompassing truth about what happened to Marianne feel free to share the truth. The lies are over. So Marianne's plans changes around noon on Saturday 5/11 And she had a free day. We were set to leave for Ecuador that Wednesday, as I was coming to her house on Monday; she came to my dad's and we went to town to eat and get this mural mural that was painted on the panel walls of my game room at a bachelor pad that was now vacant and in foreclosure. We had drinks at a few places along the way. Marianne was gonna stay with me at my dad's and headed home early AM. I got the mural and called Carson to see where he wanted it; he wouldn't reply so I Facebook messaged Clark who own owns the yoga place and Carson was also friends with. Clark's house is in the woods on the way to Mike's my dad's house for from downtown. We just bought a six pack and we had we we shot the breeze inside for a while, then went to the porch to smoke and listen to music. We all had a normal buzz, no big deal. We got there at 730 or at around 845 to nine. We were about to leave when I asked Clark about some acid or LSD, one of our friends said he had. He was scared of it. He hid it because he was scared of it. I wanted to take the acid to Ecuador to the trip. drug dogs won't catch it. So he says, no, I lost it. But I have some ecstasy, Marianne and I looked at each other and nod okay, she wouldn't have smoked crack cocaine, but she likes mushrooms, LSD and ecstasy. Even though it had been a long time, since she had done any except shrooms maybe. Her words as she took the piece maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of the pill were "oh my gosh it's been so long." Clark took his one vfifth-sized piece. Then he gave me a whole one. 15 minutes later, I can barely speak English. Marianne and I got into the hot tub. Clark was a gentleman and respectful. He got in the pool to give us privacy. Or at least be alone. It's a long story, but I don't know what that word is some something stuff I had been watching about in Peru gave me the bright idea to go into the woods and dig a hole to bury myself. It's a thing they do. I've left Marianne in the hot tub to go in the woods and her last words were "baby, I need you back in this water. Now". I said I'll only be a minute, and I'll be right back. I think it was 45 to 90 minutes later when I woke up from the blackout paralysis in the woods. I came out in the end of the driveway by the road like 1000 yards away. When I walked up the driveway, I saw Marianne floating in the Jacuzzi on her back with her head back against the corner and her nose and mouth underwater. It never occurred to me that she was dead until the time we finally called 911, but she was dead when I found her. I just thought she was too blacked out or passed out. That's that's where I screwed up. I called Adrianne because she lives five minutes away. I should have called 911 Then, and she even told me to do so; I may end up with some time for that definitely reckless conduct a misdemeanor but not murder or involuntary manslaughter. She was gone when I found her; she was floating already bruising when I touched her as much, which made them think I beat her up. When EMT and cops got there. And then we got there their drugs had us acting weird, especially since we'd waited to call 911 It looks suspicious. I didn't know Clark shot and set up until the next day. I don't remember anything from the time I got into the deputy car until my first interview at 7am I was out of it. Man I've never I've never hurt a soul not even sluts during sex. What we now know is that Marianne had an enlarged disease heart. When the hot tub and ecstasy combines she dies from a heart attack and may have choked on her own vomit, asphyxia or aspiration which causes the hemorrhage in the neck and petichae in the eyes. so that's it. No orgy. She's never done that maybe with a hot yoga chick, but not a little 69 year old man. No DMT tribal ritual just a heart attack. That was That must have likely occurred that next weekend went two hikes two miles up a balmy mountain in Ecuador. Most of the events, people, et cetera, have crossed my path in the last 29 months were to prepare me for a  purpose.

 

Penny  18:58

Marcus believes that Marianne had a heart attack and would have passed away at a later date. He further states that the coroner was looking for signs of strangulation as a result of a witness who told the GBI that she was choked by Marcus to the point that she passed out. Remember when ADA Malcor asked Marcus's ex wife Adrianne Leonard if the GBI had told her at the first interview that Marianne was strangled, and her answer was no. In this letter, Marcus says that the GBI did tell her Marianne's cause of death at that first meeting, and Miss Leonard immediately called her friend who is also a past sexual partner of Marcus Lillard. Marcus says this ex partner of his contacted the GBI to inform them of being choked by Marcus and he accuses her of lying and making things up in this letter. His ex partner was one of the 404 b witnesses who testified under oath about Marcus choking her. She did say that he choked her until she passed out. The next witness is Michael Ruff. He's a toxicologist for the GBI. He has tested alcohol and drugs in blood and urine approximately 1500 times. He has testified as an expert witness eight to 10 times. The Court recognized him as an expert in forensic toxicology. ADA Coffey asks him about Marcus Lillard's urine test results.

 

Michael Ruff  20:37

Our initial screening test was indicative for amphetamines and cocaine, cocaine metabolites. We found MDA and MDMA

 

Penny  20:49

ADA Coffey clarifies whether MDMA and MDA are commonly referred to as ecstasy and he says yes, she then asks what are some of the common effects of ecstasy,

 

Michael Ruff  21:04

increased panic increased anxiety, potential delusions and insomnia as well, there would be cognitive effects, and then there could be some behavioral disturbances and potentially increased violence along with panic attacks.

 

Penny  21:22

ADA Coffey asks if the cocaine was consumed before 11:20pm on May 11, and the urine sample was taken on May 13. At 3:25pm, would you expect to find cocaine and the response was that the metabolite of cocaine would be found and not cocaine itself. ADA Coffey then asks what are the effects of cocaine?

 

Michael Ruff  21:52

Cocaine is similar to MDMA, it can cause panic attacks, excited delirium, which can result in an increase in physical strength, paranoia, and potentially violent behavior

 

Penny  22:07

Mr. Tucker asks, What's the difference between testing a urine sample and a blood sample?

 

Michael Ruff  22:14

A blood sample gives us a much better picture of what was going on at the time of the blood draw. Urine is what we would refer to as a historical sample. So it tells us what kind of drugs someone may have used in the past, but we can't really correlate it to the levels of drugs that were present in the blood, but it gives us an indication of what was used in the past.

 

Penny  22:43

Mr. Tucker asks if he had blood instead of urine, could he more accurately tell when the substance was in the body as far as the timeline and he answers if there was blood, he could have said there was cocaine in the body at that time of the blood draw, but he would not expect to see it in the blood 15 hours after the event.

 

Michael Ruff  23:05

Things typically stick around in urine longer than they stick around in blood.

 

Penny  23:09

Mr. Tucker says the report is negative for marijuana and asks doesn't marijuana or cannabis stay in the system a lot longer than cocaine?

 

Michael Ruff  23:20

Cannabis staying in your system can depend on how frequently you use cannabis.

 

Penny  23:28

Mr. Tucker says so if he used cannabis on the night of May 11. And the urine sample was taken on May 13. Wouldn't it test positive for marijuana? 

 

Michael Ruff  23:42

Not necessarily. 

 

Penny  23:43

Mr. Tucker asks if he included the levels of the drugs from the urine sample on his report, and he responds no

 

Michael Ruff  23:54

levels of a drug in urine do not correlate well to the levels of a drug in blood.

 

Penny  24:01

Mr. Tucker asks if he performed tests on the other individuals involved with the case? And he says no. Mr. Tucker says Are you familiar that the testing conducted was with their blood and not urine? 

 

Michael Ruff  24:16

Yes, I believe the other tests were post mortem testing. There was blood available.

 

Penny  24:21

Mr. Tucker says you mentioned one of the effects of ecstasy was cognitive. That's basically loss of memory, isn't it?

 

Michael Ruff  24:30

I wouldn't limit cognitive to just loss of memory. That's a cognitive effect but I'm actually not familiar that MDMA would cause specifically loss of memory.

 

Mr. Tucker  24:40

Would it cause perception issues?

 

Michael Ruff  24:43

It would cause perception issues. Yes, that cognitive effect that would be associated,

 

Penny  24:47

Mr. Tucker says and another cognitive effect would be distortion or a not clear understanding of what's going on in front of you?

 

Michael Ruff  24:57

That is an effect that we could see. Yes.

 

Mr. Tucker  24:59

How long does the effects of ecstasy usually last?

 

Michael Ruff  25:02

I would expect to have them last for, you know, at least a few hours.

 

Penny  25:08

The state recalls Marianne's sister Ayla to the stand to talk to her about Mother's Day 2019

 

ADA Malcor  25:17

After going to your family's home, to be with your family, did you go to Marianne's house?

 

Ayla  25:24

I did. The house was unlocked, which is not unusual because they live way out of the country. And I went into Marianne's room. And we were just looking around and there was a like a folded Manila, like the yellow notepad script at the top that was sitting out. And so I just started reading it. And it felt very personal. Like I was almost, like, I shouldn't have been reading it. It was handwritten. And I know my sister's writing because you just know your family's writings. And it's very similar to mine. And as I started reading it, I got very upset and my husband was right there. And so then he read the letter to me. And then I read it again, as we were driving back to my parents home. It was a it was folded up. It wasn't in an envelope or anything. And it wasn't like addressed to anybody it was it was like a journal entry, which is kind of odd, because she does have a journal that I found out later about from her daughter. And that's beside her bed. So it was just kind of odd that a folded up, you know, and it was multiple pieces of paper that was folded up and it was in her bedroom.

 

ADA Malcor  26:31

What about it was like a journal entry.

 

Ayla  26:33

She was really self reflective, like a journal entry like you put your innermost thoughts and emotions into it. And did I answer your question? I don't know when I can keep going.

 

ADA Malcor  26:49

What was the topic? Or the theme for this particular entry or letter?

 

Mr. Tucker  26:56

And Your Honor, at this point I'd like to renew my objection based on the doctrine of completeness, and hearsay. And all the other objections I made previously. 

 

Judge Burleson  27:05

Yes, sir. Overruled

 

Penny  27:07

You're probably saying what objections is the judge overruling. So there was a pre trial hearing about the admissibility of this letter, and judge Burleson initially determined that the letter would not be admissible. However, after the defense's cross examination of one of the witnesses, Judge Burleson ruled that the letter would be admissible. And we'll talk more about that after we learn about the letter.

 

Ayla  27:40

The letter was her being reflective on her relationships and how she has selected guys to date. Or to spend time with that were not good for her. She saw the pattern of dating guys that were not good for her that she kept dating them.

 

Penny  27:59

Ada Malcor asks if she mentioned anyone by name

 

Ayla  28:04

she did. She'd mentioned one person and that was Marcus by name. And the part that really stood out to me was she wrote when he does white lady, he gets violent. And at that point, we had been told that she drowned in a hot tub. So this was like the day that I'd gotten a phone call that morning. I wasn't thinking anything other than that she had drowned. But that just seemed very odd to me. Because violence is not a word that people just throw around. And I knew that she and Marcus had done coke. She had shared them with me just yet. I know my sister. I know, you know, when she dates people and what they do and stuff. In a general sense. I mean, she doesn't call me when she was going on a date or whatever. So the white lady, I understood that to be cocaine, because I know Marcus did coke and I know Marianne did cocaine. It was a recreational drug. She did that before she had dated Marcus recreationally.

 

ADA Malcor  29:00

What did you do with it?

 

Ayla  29:01

I gave it to my dad.  I did not. I asked him about it months and months later, and he said he had burned it in the fireplace downstairs.

 

ADA Malcor  29:04

Did you ever see it again?

 

Penny  29:10

ADA Malcor asks, When was the first time you mentioned the letter to someone outside of your family?

 

Ayla  29:18

I told you. we had lunch together. There was an instance that we met with the GBI, our family did and I had asked, Are we going to bring up the letter and my dad, like, shut it down was like we are never to talk about this again.

 

Penny  29:33

Ayla says the meeting with the GBI was early on in the case, and she met with ADA Malcor about six weeks ago and told her about the letter 

 

Mr. Tucker  29:44

so, you wouldn't go against your father's and the family's decision not to bring it to the GBI. But you will against their wishes when you talk to the prosecution

 

Ayla  29:54

and felt like a safe place. My dad was there at with the GBI. And I was the youngest child, I get in pecking order. And everybody tells the other one what to do. And so yes, I did as I was told with the GBI, that was a family time, I had no idea that it would have any significance,

 

Penny  30:15

Mr. Tucker says, But you brought it up three weeks before the trial against the wishes of your family. Correct?

 

Ayla  30:23

I did go against my father. I did. I did not request his wishes.

 

Penny  30:27

Mr. Tucker says But you said it was your whole family that discussed it. Was it your whole family or your father?

 

Ayla  30:34

Papa is the one that said we will never speak of it again.

 

Penny  30:37

Ayla answers more questions about the letter. She can't remember how it starts or how it ends. And isn't sure the exact number of pages just that it was multiple pages, maybe somewhere between four and seven

 

Mr. Tucker  30:53

So, this fictitious letter, you don't know where it came from?

 

ADA Malcor  30:56

Objection

 

Ayla  30:56

I don't know that I would call it fictitious because that would mean that it's a lie. And I am

 

Judge Burleson  31:00

Hang, hang, hang on. We have an objection. State your objection.

 

Penny  31:04

ADA Malcor says argumentative, referring to the letter as fictitious and Judge Burleson sustains the objection

 

Mr. Tucker  31:12

This letter that we do not have access to that you're still stating that was found somewhere in her bedroom.

 

Ayla  31:19

It was in her bedroom on her mirror. Yes,

 

Mr. Tucker  31:21

but we don't have it today, do we?

 

Ayla  31:23

We do not.

 

Penny  31:24

Mr. Tucker asks how long it's been since she's seen the letter, and she said on May 12 2019. And he said, So it's fair to say that you haven't seen the letter for about three years? And she says Correct.

 

Ayla  31:38

Yeah, but something when my blood sibling uses the word violent, with a person by name, that's not something that you just forget. She spoke in general about just her her past and she was being self reflective. But she used Marcus by name.

 

Penny  31:56

Mr. Tucker says you stated earlier that you would categorize these people as losers.

 

Ayla  32:04

That is my opinion. She did not. She would not call people names that's not Marianne's MO, she was very kind and loving and trusting to a fault. And just a very gentle soul.

 

Mr. Tucker  32:18

So your opinion of these people that she dated and married so all these people were losers.

 

Ayla  32:23

They are not people that I would associate with or bring around to family functions

 

Mr. Tucker  32:28

now. And you would categorize Mr. Lillard as one of those losers, she dated, correct? 

 

Ayla  32:34

I would

 

Penny  32:35

ADA Melcor on cross. 

 

ADA Malcor  32:38

Are you making this up?

 

Ayla  32:39

Absolutely not. I have my Bible and I have Marianne's cross that I found randomly in a car and Absolutely not.

 

Penny  32:48

The state calls Richard Crippen, this is Ayla's husband and Marianne's brother in law. After confirming that the letter was written on yellow legal paper and folded and found in the mirror of Marianne's bedroom. He said it was about five pages long. Ada Malcor asks, What do you remember of the letter?

 

Richard Crippen  33:14

I remember feeling very weird reading it. Because I am not somebody who would be privy to Marianne's sort of inner thoughts. The letter itself read a lot like a journal or a diary entry. But it wasn't part of a journal or a diary. It was kind of a standalone letter. The nature of the writing was more sort of a reflection on her past relationships. She had some marriages that didn't work out some past relationships that didn't work out. It felt like it was writing as an exercise to maybe get to the heart of why those things didn't pan out for her. It felt sad, and maybe a tinge of frustration.

 

ADA Malcor  33:59

Did she mention anyone by name? 

 

Richard Crippen  34:01

Yes, she did mention Marcus towards towards the end of the letter. I recall her saying I don't understand why he he becomes violent or gets violent when he's on or does the white lady. I remember the term white lady was capitalized. She said I don't know where the aggression and the anger comes from. This is kind of the next sentence that I remember is really what led me to feel the frustration in her letter. She wrote, I know Marcus is right for me. But still I go dot dot dot.

 

Penny  34:35

Here is some of Mr. Tucker's cross

 

Mr. Tucker  34:37

You said a page and a half she read and handed it to you. 

 

Richard Crippen  34:40

Yes. 

 

Mr. Tucker  34:41

Okay. And you said that part about Marcus was at the end of the letter, correct?

 

Richard Crippen  34:46

Yes. Towards the end. 

 

Mr. Tucker  34:47

You said it was probably about five pages, correct? 

 

Richard Crippen  34:50

Give or take? Yes.

 

Mr. Tucker  34:51

She couldn't have seen that part about Marcus or these boyfriends within the first page and a half, correct?

 

Penny  34:57

Now that you've heard the content of the letter I want to say my understanding of why it was admitted is because Mr. Tucker use the terminology, violence and aggression when cross examining some of the witnesses and that kind of opened up the door for the letter to be admitted. Next episode we'll have Michael Maybin of the GBI. And we'll start to hear some of the interviews with Marcus Lillard. There were a total of four. There are a lot of hours of recordings that we have to get through and decide what it is that we want you to hear. Let us know your questions. You can shoot us an email at blood town podcast@gmail.com or hit us up on our socials. Join Patreon at patreon.com/blood town for early access and bonus content, or leave a rating or review on Apple podcasts, good pods or Spotify. You can visit our website blood town podcast.com or follow us on Facebook or Instagram at blood town podcast and on Twitter at blood town pod